Tickets/Violations

"PartyPooper2012" (PartyPooper2012) 06/10/2016 at 07:49 • Filed to: None

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So I was contemplating meaning of life and our existence on this planet... not really.

A cop gave me a break for going a bit too fast the other day so it made me think...

Currently, when you’re issued a ticket, that money goes to city/state/police department etc.

What if... Good drivers were rewarded with money recovered from fines from bad drivers?

You’re speeding along and you get a ticket for say 200 bucks. That 200 bucks is split - say 45% goes to cops because we need those. The rest is split among GOOD drivers that were seen around you. I don’t know... take their license plates or something and send them a check for a few bucks.

If there are no violators, good drivers get nothing. But if there is a bad driver, the worse the offense, the more money good drivers would get. Seems to me like the bad driver problem would then automatically resolve itself.

Rico > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 07:55

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But then how will city hall fill their coffers?

Berang > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 07:56

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It’s not really “good drivers” though is it? It’s more “at least they’re fucking up right now drivers” - which is not really commendable, it’s just the least people should do.

PartyPooper2012 > Rico 06/10/2016 at 07:58

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The 45% still goes to the old cause... city/state/departments

I know they won’t get as much as they used to, but I am OK with that.

They more money you give to a city/state, the more they will take. There has never been a time that a city or state said - no thank you. We don’t want the extra income. We have no need for your money

GhostZ > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:00

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Good driving is rewarded by getting to pay lower insurance rates.

The other problem with this is that it incentivizes driving good only when everyone else is driving bad. It also incentivizes deliberately provoking other people into driving bad or getting road rage because the more tickets everyone else gets, the more reward you get. It makes ticketing a competitive sport.

PartyPooper2012 > Berang 06/10/2016 at 08:01

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I agree. You could be running red lights and speeding until you come up to policed area and all of a sudden you’re the good driver, but if you know you’re going to get a possible reward for driving properly, you may continue doing that in the hopes someone else will break the law and get you a few bucks.

jkm7680 > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:02

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That's a pretty but cut. If your idea became a reality, the Police would start issuing more tickets to compensate.

450X_FTW > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:04

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Better yet, let’s base the fine on a person’s income, like they do in some European countries. A $200 speeding ticket and 2 points on the license for a person making a few million a year is nothing. But for a person who works a $12/hr job, it’s a bank breaker. And before people say “well don’t break the law”, not every law is broken on purpose, and better yet, how about we don’t financially destroy a person when they have not done any actual harm?

PartyPooper2012 > GhostZ 06/10/2016 at 08:05

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Well, in today’s day and age, I can get a speeding ticket. Get a traffic lawyer, and beat the charges or get them lowered to say seat belt violation. Insurance never hears about it. I was still speeding and endangered lives of others, but because of our system, who cares? Judicial system agreed that I was only guilty of not clicking.

It’s hard to make someone else drive bad. If you’re driving properly and you see a bad driver, you have an incentive to call cops so perhaps you can profit from it.

PartyPooper2012 > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 08:07

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Yeah... that’s good in theory, but say you’re making a million bucks and you spend all that money on puppies and orphans. How bad would you feel if you just fined a puppy/orphan rescuer 25%?

Party-vi > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:10

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In working over the past 12 years, I’ve only met two co-workers whose faces I wanted to push into an industrial fan. One of them was an admin for my construction division, and was responsible for a lot of the paperwork, e.g. processing my expense reports and making sure the company paid me back when I purchased things for work out of my own pocket.

During a meeting, she pipes up “oh by the way I processed your expense report, so, you know, you’ll get your money back. You’re welcome.” Without missing a beat I responded with “wow Kim thanks for doing your fucking job.” Now, I could see if Kim had processed my report and also gone to the bank and taken out petty cash to hand to me in the meeting I would say “hot damn, good job Kim!” but no, she wanted recognition for doing something that she is already being paid to do.

I guess what I’m getting at is, why the fuck would you reward someone for not fucking up when the thing they’re doing is already really easy not to fuck up?

PartyPooper2012 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 08:17

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I get what you’re saying. But tell me this... As a driver, what is my reward for doing my job? I pay insurance, registration, property tax, sales tax, inspection, maintenance, gas... while the next person may be driving an uninsured vehicle. Running red lights and killing innocent children playing in the street.

Kim sucks at life, but she got a pay check at the end of the month or whatever her pay period was. That’s her reward. I, on the other hand, get nothing. Roads are in terrible conditions. Potholes everywhere. Tolls are getting out of hand. Inconsiderate drivers ding your car in parking lots and ram your bumpers while parallel parking. Cost of being a driver is sky high. Why not reward a good driver a bit? I’m not talking millions here. I’m talking 3 bucks in the event you were near a bad driver when he happens to be getting pulled over.

450X_FTW > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:17

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Damn those puppy/orphan funding guilt trippers!!

PartyPooper2012 > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 08:19

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:)

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:30

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You get a road to drive on

PartyPooper2012 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 06/10/2016 at 08:32

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This road? I rather not

Party-vi > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:33

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You feel entitled to a reward because you obey traffic laws? Do you also feel that you should get a tax credit each year when you pay your taxes? You only get participation trophies in junior sports and science fairs, not in real life.

PartyPooper2012 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 08:37

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When you do your job well, do you think you’re entitled to a bonus at the end of the year? A raise? A pat on the back from your boss who says hey, good job this year?

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:40

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The issue is that the system is currently setup to designate those people as “safe” who mindlessly follow the traffic rules and have no concept of how to operate a vehicle outside of those narrow parameters.

PartyPooper2012 > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 06/10/2016 at 08:47

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I have never seen one of those. Every car I encounter on the road has some sort of violation. Driver is texting, reading, calling, eating, shaving. Car has lights off at night, light bulbs not working, windshield cracked. Car is driving too fast, drifting, driving too slow, not signaling, stop signs are optional. Yield signs are invisible. No one mindlessly follows traffic rules.

Party-vi > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 08:47

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I think I’m entitled to a bonus when I go above and beyond expectations. Get all my proposals submitted on time rather than a couple days late. Have a project that ends before CCD instead of at or after the completion date. Have not lost-time incidents on an entire base (did that, got the bonus for it).

There is no possible way to go above and beyond during your commute; everything you do is for self-preservation - don’t speed so you don’t get a ticket, use your mirrors so you don’t get hit. Stay in your lane so you don’t get hit. Obey traffic signals so you don’t get hit. You know what your reward is for being a good driver? No tickets and not getting into an accident that is your fault.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 08:51

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One of those things that sounds a lot better than it actually is. The airspace between income and expenses is a better measure of how well someone’s doing, but is really hard to gauge accurately. On paper, a guy who’s unemployed and on assistance may not as easily “afford” a ticket as the guy who’s getting $15 an hour, but say, if Mister Fifteen is trying to pay down student loans and start a family, his effective slush is very possibly way less. Further, do we really want to immunize the first dude from making bad decisions? He’s probably already made a couple. Further still, what constitutes a solid income differs from location to location, so Wayne out in the county may be living really well on his “poor man” income and willing to flout the law because (a) he doesn’t see the cops that often, and (b) the income scaling means he can afford it.

Meanwhile, John in the city has cops up his butt constantly trying to revenue-collect for the massive sucking sound that is municipal funding, and on paper can afford a much larger ticket, but has almost no disposable income. Who’s taking this one in the shorts? John, repeatedly.

In other words, not only no but hell no.

PartyPooper2012 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 08:51

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OK. Your driver’s license in my state will have a check box checked- Omit Driver Reward

Aaron M - MasoFiST > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 09:20

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If police were given the same discretion in rewarding people as they are in pulling people over and fining them, I’d want them as far away from the additional power as possible.

The one exception to this is I’d like to see drivers who directly cause traffic, either by boneheaded traffic violations or at-fault accidents during rush hour, get fined enough to kick back a small compensatory check to everyone in traffic behind them.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/10/2016 at 09:23

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Then I’d suggest make it an end of the year ticket, meaning it’s penalty when you file your taxes so it can be based off of your final “take home amont”, factoring out those student loans.

And John in the city can’t afford the ticket, so the city puts him on a payment plan. Over the next 12 months he’s paying enough interest on the $150 ticket that it costs him $900.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 09:31

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Except that the take-home at the end of the year is so stupidly easy to game. We don’t really want Mike the off-the-books yard guy to pay half the ticket John and Wayne have to when he’s clearing $10k more a year in real money. Nor do we want Ralph who is on disability to not have to pay anything if his standard of living is higher than John’s. Meanwhile, Stacey is deducting her student loans, but hits the limit and still has *on paper* a higher income. And, as you list above, there is no way that John is getting out of a good old fashioned shafting, but enabling the shafting is not good either.

In summary, anything can seem like a good idea until it makes contact with the enemy.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/10/2016 at 09:33

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Then make all traffic tickets $5,000 or community service, driver gets the choice.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 09:39

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Eenteresting. Might work, with work.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/10/2016 at 09:46

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I like giving people the option of their punishment, will help decrease the burden of the tax payers. For example, if you are caught stealing, something simple like packs of cigarettes, you can go to jail for a few months, or you can have a finger cut off, but the victim gets to choose which finger.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 09:50

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Would you rather have no roads? Or roads controlled by private parties?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW 06/10/2016 at 09:54

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“Thank you for flying Church of England - cake or death?”

Party-vi > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 10:02

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That’s perfectly fine. I expect to get a reward for not opting in to the reward program.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/10/2016 at 10:10

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ooo cake, confetti cake if possible please

PartyPooper2012 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 10:16

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Check is in the mail.

PartyPooper2012 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 06/10/2016 at 10:18

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Tax payers and Toll payers pay for the maintenance of the roads. So if roads are not maintained, I would prefer to have no roads. I will use woods and dirt to pave my way. At least my taxes will be lower and there won’t be tolls. That in itself is a reward.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 10:29

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Just gonna roll through other people’s property then? Or are you planning on buying all the land between where you are and where you need to get to?

PartyPooper2012 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 06/10/2016 at 10:35

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I guess I could do both. More importantly, I can get a proper vehicle to go through impassable areas

Xyl0c41n3 > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 10:41

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Because driving is a privilege, not a right. There’s a cost of entry to be a driver, whether good or bad. For good drivers, we have to pay all the associated costs of driving: the car, it’s fuel and maintenance, associated taxes, insurance, etc. For bad drivers, they pay the additional associated costs of being a bad driver: registration holds for lack of insurance, traffic tickets and/or warrant fees and court costs for not paying those traffic tickets, jail time for accidents, DWIs, etc.

Not only that, but traffic citation money doesn’t go directly to people, like cops (thank God, because then you’d have overzealous cops pulling everyone over in order to line their pockets), it goes directly into the general fund of whatever municipality or agency issues the ticket. THAT then goes to things like maintaining the patrol vehicles of those ticket-writing cops, filling potholes, clearing brush from alleyways, sending first responders to mandatory continuing education courses, funding your local Boys & Girls Club or YMCA, or any other number of city-funded projects. (Source: I’m a journalist who has covered city politics and has seen, line item per line item, how such funds are distributed).

Then, to your assertion that it’s not “millions here. I’m talking 3 bucks...”

It IS millions if you factor in how many drivers would “qualify” for that same $3. You’re not the only one who would. By and large, MOST drivers are pretty good drivers.

Finally, as Party-vi already explained, you don’t get rewarded simply for doing the bare minimum that’s expected of you. I’m sure you’ve also never murdered anyone in your life. Should someone reward you for that by paying your mortgage and electric bill? Should you get a letter in the mail from the federal government once a year with a check for $5 and a note that says “congratulations for not committing a capital crime!”?

No. Because that’s not how life works.

Instead of focusing on how unjust it is that nobody is celebrating you for fulfilling the barest of minimums of the social contract you unwittingly agreed to by existing as a very, very small cog within a very, very large society, just get on with your life.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 10:45

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No, this is a proper vehicle

Xyl0c41n3 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 10:45

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Speaking of the fact that you’re a contractor....

I so wish I could pick your brain about some contracting/consulting stuff that I’ve been covering. I have an inkling there’s something slightly shady going on, but as I’m not very well versed in that world (nor are the elected officials approving the projects), we all kinda have to take the consultant’s word for it.

Sigh.

PartyPooper2012 > Xyl0c41n3 06/10/2016 at 10:49

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$5 for not murdering anyone sounds decent, actually. I think we should implement it.
April 15th rolls around. Accountant asks if you’ve murdered anyone. You say no, line item NM $5
I like it. Thanks.

You have a point and so does Party-vi. If everyone did their fucking jobs, there would be no need for cops or EMT. If road work people did their fucking jobs, there would be no potholes. If everyone had a job and paid taxes and politicians didn’t line their pockets, we would have no debt in this country. But, as you say, that’s not how life works.

PartyPooper2012 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 06/10/2016 at 10:52

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Let’s agree to disagree?

Party-vi > Xyl0c41n3 06/10/2016 at 10:53

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We take improprieties and the appearance of improprieties very seriously where I work, to the point that I am not allowed to ask a subcontractor for home advice or for a recommendation on who to use for personal projects.

There are usually parts to these situations that you may not know about, and something may seem shady on the surface but will have a reasonable explanation, but due to the circumstances can’t be brought up officially. Say there’s a city contractor with a history of past performance that did some extra work on a project but funding was not available to pay for this extra work, but the work was necessary to complete the project and rather than hold up the project they absorbed the cost. The city, on the next project, may overlook a higher proposal from this contractor in order to make them whole again. It’s a give and take, and is common between customers and contractors in certain areas but according to the written law, is illegal. Per FAR, you cannot give free work to the government and the government cannot ask for free work, but at the same time I probably gave our customer at least $60,000 in freebies over the course of several projects.

Xyl0c41n3 > Party-vi 06/10/2016 at 10:56

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This is a case of where, over the last few meetings, lack of experience notwithstanding, even the elected officials have had numerous questions about why X cost Y, or why A took on B additional cost compared to previous meetings. I wish I could go into more detail, but I won't on such a public forum.

Party-vi > Xyl0c41n3 06/10/2016 at 11:03

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Things like that can occur because of the contract vehicle or what the contract stipulates. My contract I worked off of stated we would used an accepted line item estimate book (RSMeans or Gordian), and then a coefficient applied to the line items.

We get a project to replace a door. Instead of telling the customer “this will cost $3,000 to replace”, I would submit a line item estimate that shows our costs per the book ($100 mobilization, $1,500 for new door and hardware, $500 for demolition and dump fees, $250 for painting), and then it would apply my coefficient (cost from the book X 1.25 or something). This allows the customer and contractor to use an agreed set of values for a contract so there is no bickering over price information. If I actually costs me $2,000 for the door and hardware, I’m out of luck; if it only costs me $500 for the door and hardware, it’s a gain on my end.

Depending on what you’re doing, your officials should have an internal estimate that was prepared for the project/work because they would have needed to secure funding before the project/consulting could start. Granted these estimate are almost always low (and I’m not just saying that as a contractor), but they should have some sort of reference to see if your consultant is providing accurate pricing or if they’re trying to fleece you. I should point out that I can only reference the construction field and our practices in it.

Xyl0c41n3 > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 11:04

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Actually, no. That’s not how it works, either. If everyone did their fucking jobs we would still need cops, paramedics and yes, even politicians.

Utopia doesn’t exist, bruh.

But a society, even one close to perfection, still needs bureaucracy.

Xyl0c41n3 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/10/2016 at 11:54

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Do you have any meat pies?

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 12:13

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This is true. However that’s what’s taught. I have yet to see a driver’s ed program that focuses on actually operating the vehicle. They all just teach traffic laws and maybe touch on the basics of driving if you’re lucky. It’s the people who were told to slow down in poor weather and mindlessly do so, thinking they’re not posing a safety risk by driving at 75% (or less) of the speed of traffic just because there’s a couple snowflakes in the air. Or people who camp in the left lane because it’s a valid travel lane and they have every right to use it when they’re travelling at the speed limit. Or people who absolutely refuse to pass left-lane campers because they aren’t allowed to pass on the right and then get super road-ragey about it. Or people on two-lanes who cause a huge backup cause they’re too timid to mash the throttle to get around a slow vehicle. Or people travelling together but too close together so traffic backs up behind them because the first guy following the convoy is waiting for the back of the convoy to pass the front because he can’t possibly pass more than one car at a time.

Everyone has the rules that they knowingly (or in some cases unknowingly... I’d guess only 20% of drivers check their lights regularly) violate, but it’ll mostly be a violation out of laziness, and not out of active disregard for the laws. Not to point out that someone should actively and knowingly be violating the laws, but the mindless drivers are the ones who aren’t going to be able to adapt to a situation that requires more than just holding the steering wheel.

PartyPooper2012 > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 06/10/2016 at 12:23

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Can I give you more than just one star?

Thank you for confirming my suspicions that I am not the only one thinking everyone else is crazy out there. People are just nuts. Thoughtless somehow. I don’t understand how they go about their lives, but they do somehow and I am left thinking why I can’t do the same...

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > PartyPooper2012 06/10/2016 at 12:56

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I used to get severe road rage because of these people. Then I rear-ended a little old lady (by accident!) because I took off way too aggressively from a stop light from behind a line of cars. No damage or injuries, but it caused me to take a moment to re-assess driving priorities and allowed me to realize that most of the drivers on the road I was frustrated with were totally unaware that they were causing problems. It’s impossible to teach people how to do things the correct way when they don’t even realize they’re doing it wrong, and then people start thinking you’re crazy when you rant about idiots on the road who most people see as “normal drivers”. My driving has since taken a much more zen approach.

PartyPooper2012 > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 06/10/2016 at 13:00

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I’ve been increasing my Zen points, but it’s not nearly enough. Most of the time I realize that I am most likely surrounded by idiots probably masturbating while driving and so I try to either speed up or slow down in order to get away from them... but then I find myself surrounded by more idiots with genitals in their hands aiming their several ton vehicles directly at me... just can’t win